Ron A Smith.com

18 Comments (and one trackback)

• #1 by Dave Hoyt-Walterhouse on November 25th, 2007

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  If you can’t picture yourself getting married, then don’t. Since when do we actually “know ourselves”? What? We’re going to wake up at thirty and say, “My oh my, I have traversed the world, had sex with many strangers, and now I “know myself” completely and I will marry this 30 year old that also knows themselves and neither of us will grow in opposite directions for the next seventy years….we will know who we are and not change because if we do, then we will divorce and blame it on getting married too young”. My parents are 40+ and are just starting to “know themselves” now. I put that phrase in quotations because we are always in a state of change and flux and we will only know who we are in that moment in time. I knew who I was at 21 and Steph knew who she was at 24….we insisted on not rushing anything and it seemed like the next natural progressive step in our relationship for both of us after dating for 1 year and 2 months and being engaged for 3 months. We are completely different people now because we live in a completely different environment and have made certain decisions than we did 4 years ago. Renee on the other hand exudes the self confidence of a pre-adolescent girl (which isn’t necessarily her fault) and therefore should not get married until she has evolved a bit more (45 maybe?…and that’s pushing it) into someone who voices opinions about this topic based less out of reaction and more out of a vision of what she actually wants her life to be. Personal attack on Renee aside, we all make decisions based on what we know and to put a blanket statement on all “Christian 21 – 23 yr olds” rings hallow. It would be better Renee, if you simply mentioned the names of the Baptist couple(s) that you’re referring to so as to bring credibility to your argument. Or perhaps do an introspective look at why you’re so angry at these people who have found “the one” while you are not yet married and just “going with the flow, man”

  I do agree that it is silly to get married based on the pent up sexual frustration of not being able to have sex. But there are certain amounts of guilt that get piled up on different people and because we are all different we react to this guilt in many different ways. Renee reacts to it by “going with the flow” and pretending that any guilt never existed and never feeling like she failed at marriage while others choose to get married (pre-maturely perhaps) and fail numerous times but hack through it anyway. Some make it out “on the other side”…some don’t. Either way, both of you (Renee and young Baptist married couple(s)are making decisions based on what you know and trying to tell one side what they should not do based on bad examples that both parties have seen. The married couple looks at Renee and sees a girl confused and hardened about life because of the hard knocks that she’s been dealt. Renee looks at the married couple and sees them as naive because they are ignorantly blissful of the bad things that have happened in her life based on the “sheltered” life that they have chosen to stay in.

  And that’s the Word.

• #2 by Ryan Chapman on November 25th, 2007

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  Baldwin – If you could have choosen one girl in this entire who would you spend the rest of your life with ? Renee

  Damn straight you know it ! Tu es belle Renee.

  If you can’t have what you want. Argue for it !

  Love from Montreal.

  I’m looking forward to your arrival in MTL for another snow season this time Mount Tremblant.

  Fernie , Lake Louise & Sunshine are done. NEXT . . . .

  You know how we do.
  I need that gear shipped homie.
  Next payment I’ll have some coins ATMed your way.

  CH@P$

• #3 by Nathan on November 25th, 2007

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  First, get some real audio recording equipment because all the static drives me crazy and I’m sure you are driving away viewers.
  Second, Dave you are a wise man. Good words.

  Well, I guess a lot of this is in response to Renee.
  so here we go…

  1. You make blanket generalizations that “you don’t even know yourself” talking to everyone in a certain age bracket. I’m with Dave, what does that even mean? Can you take the Eric who walked in behind you on the video and take his lifestyle and then compare him to me (same age) and my lifestyle and honestly tell us both we aren’t ready? Wouldn’t you think that it’s different for both of us? We have both gone in different directions trying to ‘find ourselves’ and both come to different conclusions. Not all people at a certain age group ‘can’t find themselves’ so be careful to take how you feel (or how you are told to feel) (or how you are told some others feel) and make it one big generalization for everyone else. What a myth that is that these Christians are getting married to have sex. Show me one couple who got married so they can have sex. Any couple I know would be a lot quicker to throw on a condom and brush away the guilt rather than go through the hassle of getting married.

  2. I think your view on marriage is weak. “Don’t get married you said, go on vacation and travel. Don’t get married because then you get bills.” Umm…most twenty year olds I know have bills (and aren’t living with their parents) and travel and go on vacations, but then again so do most married couples I know. I don’t really see the differences that you are seeing by being married and trying to avoid them by being single.

  3. I think in the end is that you are saying is that people should avoid marriage to avoid responsibility. Who wants to look after two people when you only want to look after one? Who wants to put someone else before themselves when you want to put yourself first? There is no harm in not getting married, if you don’t get married sure you have a lot of time for yourself to do the things that you want and to make yourself feel good. One day though I think you will realize that life isn’t all about you and what makes you feel good, and that marriage is a beautiful picture of two people honestly trying to work out that reality in their lives.

  So I would say that until you are ready to honestly say that you will start trying to put someone else in front of yourself, love and care for them before yourself, then don’t get married. That would be a good reason not to get married. So people will hit that at different stages, young and old. If you really just don’t want bills, and want to travel well then that’s kinda a crappy reason, and it’s probably a good thing you aren’t getting married right now because there is obviously quite a weak understanding of what marriage really is.

  By the way I traveled to five countries before I was married. Since I’ve been married (6 months ago) I have been to another 11 countries so I would argue that being married kicks ass to being single in those aspects.

• #4 by adrienne on November 26th, 2007

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  I think a better arguement Renee could have used and would probably have used if she had gotten the chance would be; many girls and guys who get married young usually end up seeking their identitie within they’re partner, rather than taking time to know who they are apart from that other person they rush into marriage. Its more about developing ones self into the person you need to be for that special someone. A lot of marriages break down because one or the other puts the partner on a God like pedestal that they don’t deserve, the only being who deserves that place of honour is “God”. So it is about knowing ones self but also about knowing who God made you to be.
  Wow Dave and Nathan you showed no mercy towards Renee, take it easy! If I was her I’d feel really insulted by being called something reminiscent to an adolescent. You both should have stuck with arguements that stated “from my experience” or “I believe that”. The vlog was def on the fly and she probably didn’t think Ron would have posted it, thats why her arguement was weak. Besides I think you both know what she was really getting at anyway, you seem to both have had a knee jerk reaction to her statements cuz your both young and married.

• #5 by Dave Hoyt-Walterhouse on November 27th, 2007

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  There is no reason to state that “from my experience” or “I believe that” as it is me typing. Anyone who can not logically conclude that the opinions expressed by this writer are indeed the opinions expressed by this writer needs to stop taking their cues from Hollywood corporation’s disclaimers at the beginning of each film they produce.

  In regards to all the other things that you wrote Adrienne, my eyes glaze over as I hear the trite rhetoric of long ago youth group leaders enter my mind. If you can identify with that language, that’s great. If you can live it, even greater. But please know that none of what you said makes sense to me in a practical way (this is not your fault…more a language barrier).

  I don’t know what “seeking their identitie within they’re partner, rather than taking time to know who they are apart from that other person” looks like. Or if it is even a bad thing. In marriage each person changes to reflect some of the characteristics of the other no matter what age you are. Does that mean you do not truly “know yourself or who God made you to truly be”?

  So in marriage are we supposed to be two independent entities worshiping God in our own ways with our own friends? Quite honestly, you and Renee sound like two young women who are jealous that all your friends are getting married around you and you can not relate to that experience. I have heard this same sentiment from several of my single friends that often feel that “now that they are married, they don’t hang out with us (single friends) anymore but only with other married couples”. I can understand that for both of you, that might translate into the feeling that your former friend is now putting “the partner on a God like pedestal that they don’t deserve” instead of hanging out with you and your other single friends until late in the early morning.

  All I can really say is that until you are married, you can offer your opinion, but please expect a knee jerk reaction to it and be prepared to defend your opinion as I have defended my own. And when you get married and still carry these same opinions, that’s awesome. I hope it works out for you. I am not going to tell you how you should act when you are married or leading up to being married. But understand that at this vantage point, you are both outside looking in (sorry to further alienate you), and judging by the role models that you both have (again, me outside looking in) I can perhaps try to understand why you hold these opinions.

  Dave

• #6 by Ron Smith on November 27th, 2007

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  Well then. I feel a vlog coming on for me and Dave.
  I think its a shame when we try to “formulate” how we meet, how we date, how we propose, how we wed and ultimately, how we live out a marriage.

  If I am single for the next 3 years, meet a girl and am married 3 weeks later doesn’t make my marriage less in correct than if I meet a girl, date for 3 years, prepare the wedding for a year, etc, etc.

• #7 by nathan on November 27th, 2007

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  I apologize Renee, and Adrienne if I came of as harsh, that wasn’t the intent.
  It probably would have been easier if I was the third person to come in on the video, so I could just participate in the conversation instead of arguing on Ron’s website who we all know no one really goes on

  Again though Adrienne, think about what you are saying. I understand the rhetoric of knowing yourself and getting value apart from your partner before you get married, and it makes sense to me, but really when you get married you throw all that out the window anyway because the harder you try to hold on to yourself and who you are the more upset and angry you become when you can’t be that person when you get married.

  Marriage isn’t about two individuals coming together trying to hold on to their respective individuality. It’s about two individuals coming together and trying to uphold the others.

• #8 by adrienne on November 27th, 2007

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  Okay man I hate the internet for its lack of ability to enable a decent conversation to happen.
  Dave this isn’t anything I learned in youth group, its something I learned from relationships in general. Wow I’m insulted and hurt, so this is my knee jerk response to you.
  Ya I completly agree with both you and Nathan about ones concept of self becoming one with another person when you get married. In fact I think its the most beautiful thing to happen.
  Set aside the whole God side of things and just hear the bare bones of what I’m saying. What I fear is that a person never develops a sense of self and instead seeks it in another person. They hide away in another person and never know who they are because they have defined themselves by that other person.

  Rhetoric? Yes and no. I agree that two individuals come together in marraige and put the others needs ahead of themselves. When one or both have no concept of who they are apart from that person the relationship becomes that of dependancy rather than of companionship. That isn’t healthy because no one can be everything for someone. Its the same in any relationship, to be consumed by anthing is not healthy.

  Damn it I don’t think I’m being clear. I’m done with this post.

• #9 by adrienne on November 27th, 2007

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  PS Dave as much as you claim to not make judgments about people, you do! You made some assumptions and generalizations about both Renee and I. I’m really hurt by your remarks. I think you have some great things to say but…. please tread softly on peoples hearts.

• #10 by Stef (Dave's wife) on November 28th, 2007

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  After reading the wide variety of opinions expressed here. . . I can’t help but have a smile on my face. For me, I found the most offense in Renee’s insinuating that early marriage means the end of freedom and the beginning of responsibility. As has been expressed already, responsibility and freedom are attributes that don’t necessarily come with age, occupation or marriage. On that same note though, one can be responsible and pay bills and still have a great deal of freedom and that goes for the married, the single the young and the old. This does not mean that there will be added frustration once one does get married. Your spouse for instance will have different opinions and preferences on just about everything. You will fight. You will gain a whole new perspective of yourself and see aspects that you may have never seen and may not want to see. You will be frustrated at times. If anything, marriage is probably one of the best situations in which to develop ones character! Now, the reason that I am smiling is this. For young women and sometimes older women too, it can be a risk that the female will lose herself in a relationship. Which is why you will see younger females pretending to like hockey when they actually hate it. . .etc. Why some females have the tendency to do this could have many different reasons some of them being the desire for connection, a lack of security in their life among other things. When this is the case, then a woman should not get married. Marriage should be founded on honesty. But. . .again, this situation has nothing to do with age. I have seen many older women who are stuck playing out this role. . .who suddenly in their mid forties or fifties have an awakening and wonder what in the heck they’ve done. Though I am sure that there are some men out there who struggle with this as well, I seem to know more women in this situation. I’d like to write more, but I am married. . and my husband needs to use the computer. . .

  Stef

• #11 by Sibbs on November 29th, 2007

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  They get married….gay to gay…. they get married

• #12 by adrienne on November 29th, 2007

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  well said Steph!

• #13 by John on December 7th, 2007

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  It’s interesting how offended those that have married young can get by the type of comments offered in this video.

  I don’t think Renee’s views would be right for everyone, but they are for some. In many subcultures and certainly in the evangelical christian sub-culture, there is a great deal of pressure to get down to the business of getting married. That pressure is applied equally to those ready and those NOT ready to get married.

  Marriage comes with a whole new set of wonderful things and a whole new set of problems, it will neither ruin you nor make everything bliss and sunflowers. You get from life what you put into it.

  Those that want to get married should consider what it means and why they are doing it. Those that are avoiding getting married should ask themselves the same questions. There’s no one size fits all answer to this one. Even from a “christian” context, the marriage and family is seen as God’s design, yet our perfect example and the one we strive to be like, never married. Paul follows that later with a statement you are never likely to hear given as actual advice in a christian setting, it’s better to NOT marry.

  People often get married because they are afraid to face life on their own.
  People often do not get married because they are afraid to face life with responsibility to someone else.

  Choices made from fear are never good choices.

• #14 by Ron Smith on December 7th, 2007

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  Word John, Word.

• #15 by Joe Reid (yes the Joe Reid) on December 21st, 2007

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  I’m not commenting here to agree or disagree with anyone. I’m merely commenting to express another opinion. To me the readiness for someone to be married cannot be judge by age but by maturity. Some of the earlier views touched on knowing ones self but that kind of self realization doesn’t have to come after a life time of experiences. Some people understand their own identity at a younger age and therefore can better evaluate their compatibility with someone else at that younger age. However I do agree there can be limitations to your level of understanding at a younger age. Feelings can be easily confused when a life is undergoing significant changes i.e. career change, moving geographically, the death of a close one, etc. And quite often a young life undergoes many dramatic changes. And how is maturity measured? There is no graph or statistical chart to illustrate someone’s progress. So perhaps maturity can at least be summarized by characteristics. To me these characteristics would include, but are not limited to, knowing and understanding ones goals, the ability to form personal morals and beliefs, and to be able to practice those things you enjoy most in life. So should the perfect match for someone be another who shares the same goals and enjoys the same activities. Well sure there should be some similarities but sometimes it’s the differences that people value most in a partner. But maybe I’m forgetting something here…ah of course…Love. It’s what musicians sing about, what poets and authors write about and the third ingredient to looking after a plant (the other two being water and sunshine) or so I’m told. Unfortunately grasping the kind of love between two people who are to be married is something you have discovered for yourself. I myself believe to have felt it and although Shakespeare does his best to throw words at the meaning I still know that it is a feeling that is an indescribable joy. So why do “arranged” marriages have a higher success rate than other marriages? To me this can easily be explained by what the marriage is built on. If a marriage loses the foundation on which it is built than it will fail. That is unless another foundation can be built. A marriage that is not arranged commonly is built on love. Therefore to misunderstand love could mean the foundation of a marriage built on love could suffer. So love is the tricky part and if it is something you have to learn for yourself it is a lot easier to confuse it with something else. So to summarize before this opinion because a novel I feel that if two people understand their own identity (reach maturity) and understand that the love they share is special (is not synthetic) then they can decide accurately if they are ready commit themselves to each other in marriage.

• #16 by Renee on January 30th, 2008

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  FIRST OFF.. I was half tanked when Ron and I did this blog, therefore wasnt able to fully explain what I was saying… for me, it was never a big debatable issue…just stating a perspective.

  all I was saying is I think for some of “the young and in love”….they havent a clue what marriage is all about. So its important to see a marriage councellor and get everything out in the open before ya lock down.

  Some of you are in your early 20′s and are married..and that sweet!!! Its stupid for you to take offence to what I’m saying if it doesnt apply to you.
  A little defensive are we??????

  Personally what I plan on doing is waiting a while… I have the rest of my life to be with that special person. I was in a relationship for 4 years already.. I know whats up and what its like to be in love.. I also know there are many fish in the sea…and I’m not going to settle for the 1st “christian” to swim by…like a lot of others do..

• #17 by Lea on July 28th, 2008

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  Haha well that was all very entertaining to read. I am a “young and in love”, newly married woman, and I love it!
  Renee, I will agree with you that many couples in their young twenties are not at a maturity level where they should be making such a huge commitment. I’m not quite sure what you mean exactly by “know who you are” though. I think people actually get too caught up in that sometimes. The great saga of “finding ourselves”. We go off, travel the world, sleep with different people, try many different things, only to come back more lost and confused about who we are than we were before! I understand though that there may be some, like yourself, who want to expereince certain things before they get married, and theres nothing wrong with that. I know who I am in Christ; I knew when I was 18, but I will forever be growing and learning, and being molded into His image; people constantly change. I do think that a couple should have certain plans solidified before they get married though, such as where they will live, can they afford it, is the man able to provide for his bride, do they have careers, or will they in the near future, what are their expectations of eachother, and of course they should take some pre-marriage counseling at their church to better prepare themselves for marriage. However, I think preparing for marriage is much like preparing to have a child; you can prepare yourself for the idea of marriage, and what you think it may be like, but you can’t know exactly what you’re in for until you’re there.
  I did go for the first “Christian to swim by”, and man what a catch! My husband however is older than myself, and had had 2 previous relationships before he met me. Those relationships taught him a lot about what he wanted in a future spouse, and also what he did not want! When he got to know me, he just knew he wanted to marry me. I on the other hand had not dated, and the idea of permanence sort of scared me…which is odd, because I had been praying that God would “find me a husband” so to speak…. guess he came sooner than I expected! Anyway when I got to know him and realized what an incredible guy the lord had brought into my life, why would I not want to marry him? I was prepared to commit to this wonderfully imperfect person for the rest of my life, challenges included.
  Despite the many christian couples who do mess up and go to far physically, not all Christian couples are just “doin in anyway”; we had not had sex with eachother, or anyone else, and yes that was one thing we were looking forward to in marriage. BUt it’s not why we married.
  Bottom line: there is no age, or length of dating time that ensures a good, faithful, or lifelong marriage, but only the willingness of two individuals to keep a promise to love their spouse, as God has instructed them. That is what’s going to make a marriage great, and what will make it last.

• Trackback: Everyone loves getting married, but they're so pricey. Not to mention complicated. So I suppose a good wedding planner could be really very useful.

• #18 by RENEE! on May 12th, 2012

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  So I googled my name and this pops up! Come on, don’t act like you don’t do it from time to time.

  Anyways “baldwin” and I made this video while having a few pops 5 years ago. He had asked if I wanted to debate on young couples getting married…”oh hell, why not” I replied.. So in my defense my whole perception on this topic was clearly not thought out as I chose to debate Ron without even knowing my own ground on which I stood on…in fact, I’ll admit I tried to stir the pot just a little…So to see all the reply’s is pretty neat and I’m glad it stirred up quite the debate. I think love and marriage is a wonderful blessing at any age. So if two decide to “walk the plank”.. (KIDDING, DAVEY & NATHAN calm down) that’s awesome and I would wish them nothing but pure happiness

  Dave: you mentioned I was jealous?? lol, no my dear, not jealous…am I going to have to drive over to your little bubble bath store and have a talk with you?? At that age I had no friends that were married or even engaged..but thanks! We were all working on getting our education…something you skipped perhaps

  Please note, I did not read all the reply’s…